W. Blackburn & M. Brown



Well, we. 

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Predecessor of CFO with CJC. 


And when did you? 

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Born here in 1922. 

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It would be. 

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One of the first station, it was the 3rd. 

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Private commercial broadcasting station in Canada. 

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First was CFCF. 


Thank you. 

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CFRB I guess. 

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Or do you live on? 

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26 May have shifted the issue. 

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00:00:40 Speaker 1 

I could get it from my record, but I can’t remember, but the second one was. 

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I know we were the third I had Jim Mallard, whom you were referred to, research this for me on one occasion. 

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How many hours have you been on roughly obviously not a 24 hour day operation when. 

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You’ve got it now. 

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And in those days, can. 

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It was on when the spirit moved my father or. 

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Or somebody else to turn it on. 

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It wasn’t a commercial station. 

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I was such. 

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Really if it was. 

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Carried very little advertising as I understand it, but I’m not speaking from personal. 

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Direct knowledge while there. 

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Family history is it where all the kind? 

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I can recall on occasion on a Sunday, Saturday or Sunday, uh, receiving a call from the. 

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The then manager, who said he was going down to the station on the air and would I like to come along and help them and put records on. 

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Putting records on was putting them on an ordinary phonograph in those days and playing them into a carbon microphone. 

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Which was placed close to the phonograph. 

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No, of course you didn’t have an electrical to. 

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Enter no, was. 

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But my big job was winding turn time off. 

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And how long we was? 

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Stationed on under this cold weather. 

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I’m not directly sure if my dates come the. 

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The station CJCC was sold. 

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By my father. 

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During the depression, when? 

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Some resources were required to support the remainder of the operation. 

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And it became CKLW in Windsor. 

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It’s frequency was could be used. 

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In Windsor. 

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C JGC had been. 

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Or its transmitter had been moved from London. 

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Down near gunco. 

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And the. 

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Which had been built by our own staff. 

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And the antenna. 

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Did not radiate enough power to provide good coverage in London. 

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There at a major. 

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Miscalculation. Engineering miscalculation. 

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That area. 

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It was moved in order to. 

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Pay to permit it to increase in power to five kilowatts, which was required by a new international agreement negotiated as you’re aware, to the North American Regional Broadcasting, agreed. 

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And that amount of power was impossible, right? 

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In London itself, the station used to be on top of Hotel London. 

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Or over in our own building, we think, yes, in our own building at that time. 

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Dennis was moved to then full. 

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The second reason for that move was in order to endeavor to provide coverage. 

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West of London, which was a good London area. 

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It was hoped to coverage, if I understand it would extend to Windsor. 

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Which it didn’t extend to Windsor anymore than it extended even to London. 

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The next Chatham station. 

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Certainly was a good rental station. 

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The end result of that was that. 

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The station was sold. 

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Became CKLW. 

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And in fact. 

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The there was no station in London. 

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Run by London Free Press. 

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For about a year and. 

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The game. 

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After which time. 

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Another station was started, which, as I recall, was on hotel among the. 

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It was 150 watts, nothing or 100 watts. Nothing of that nature. 

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And provided London coverage and was. 

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On the old CNR. 

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Network, which was the previous answer of the CBC. 

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The CNR at that time had the responsibility to run the network. 

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Government network. 

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So it was. 

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It had carried 2 coal letters. 

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When it goes on the network and CSPL when it wasn’t on the network. 

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Where did you find the staff from the station when you reactivated? 

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When they coming by that time out of radio itself or it’s still? 

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Allergy coming out. 

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Of other businesses. 

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Primarily out of other businesses, the engineering staff came from one electrical. 

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Electricians in London. 

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The management staff. 

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Frankly, I don’t know where. 

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It came from. 

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Before my time, my active time. 

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And then you weren’t actively involved in working at that station or for. 

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Only as a Saturday, Sunday volunteer on occasion. 

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What sort of programming is doing in that period? 

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Literals, mainly network. 

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And sorry about her story. 

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With local recording will crash and send local live shows. 

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We had a studio in the Old Free Press building on Richmond St. 

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on the third floor. 

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Using the old carbon microphones. 

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Some local orchestras played on occasion, as I remember. 

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As a boy. 

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But it was mostly excellent. 

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And probably get some emotion in the. 

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Hotel London and maybe. 

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Port Stanley would be going a little far. 

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Away next week. 

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I don’t really know, I don’t remember. 

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Were you were you, then became and actively involved in 1936. 

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1936 when I. 

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Graduated from the university and. 

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And took over the active. 

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Management of the company following my father’s death in December of 1935. 

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That’s sort of. 

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Shaped from the revenue point of view is the end of that. 

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No, it was an expense. 

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In those days. 

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And up until the end of the depression. 

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Beginning of the war years. 

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Particularly across the post war period, the station began to show. 

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Mary became involved in 19451945 just after the war. 

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And from then on, I think Murray, we began to. 

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Improve our revenues. 

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Get better control of our expenses. 

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You came as as the. 

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Let Johnny do everything to start early morning announcer remotes sale. 

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When I was. 

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You made me commercial manager was. 

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I’ll call the sales manager. 

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Which was the most important need of that moment? 

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Which married. 

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While there was also a strong programming need which you might want to speak to, which was filled at that time. 

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We lost the. 

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We were the basic affiliate of the trans kind of the network. 

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And the CBC in 1945 decided that. 

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CBL could cover this area and it would be. 

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Trans Canada outlet we would lose it completely. 

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In its place, we. 

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Would get the. 

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Dominion Network was strict, which was then strictly a nighttime network. 

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So we had to do a lot of scurrying around to program the daytime. 

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We lost such things as the Happy Gang and the soap operas in the afternoon and all those thing. 

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But as it turned out, that was our salvation, because we had to. 

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Look to our own resources to beat our competition, which was primarily WJR Detroit. 

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Fortunately, we were able to do that. 

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They were at that time the number one station in the London area in terms of audience. 

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And by local programming, we eventually beat them out. 

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But it was it took an awful turn around in those couple of years to bring that all about. 

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Philip Morris was manager when you came out with me, Mary. 

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And he left about three or four months after I started. 

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So we. 

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Were able to reorganize after Mary arrived in. 

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And Don Regan. David came in as manager at the beginning of 46 January 46. 

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Don Rice had been the director of Music of the. 

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London’s educational system. 

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The Board of Education. 

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And we needed a good programming man at that time. 

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For the reason Murray was mentioned to. 

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Continue to build up our audience. 

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Visa V, the our WJR competitor. 

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And Don came in. 

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And started the downright chorus, which was. 

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One of the first programs to be fed to the by a private affiliate to CBC Network, it was on, I think it was the first program, certainly the first series ever went. 

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It was on on Sunday nights on a regular basis for some years. 

00:13:05 Speaker 3 

For five of them five years, yeah. 

00:13:08 Speaker 2 

And do we ever. 

00:13:08 Speaker 2 

Have a staff orchestra band staff. 

00:13:13 Speaker 3 

Yeah, we used to have an orchestra which was called the CFL orchestra, the leader of which was Neil Mackay, who was now quite a prominent musician residing in Hawaii. 

00:13:24 Speaker 3 

I think he’s. 

00:13:25 Speaker 3 

Director of Music for the University of Hawaii. 

00:13:32 Speaker 3 

They’re all Plunkett was The Who used the name of Don Harding at that time, was the featured singer, and he’s one of our best known physicians in the city today. 

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People seem to work awfully long hours with this illness when they got. 

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Into it back in. 

00:13:52 Speaker 2 

Those days, seven days a week, about 45 hours a day. 

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And then when they weren’t. 

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They were at the station anyway. 

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Yeah, at that time, that certainly was the case changed. 

00:14:06 Speaker 1 

It was quite exciting to be broadcasting. 

00:14:09 Speaker 1 

It still is. 

00:14:10 Speaker 1 

It still is there, but. 

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There isn’t quite the same dedication. 

00:14:15 Speaker 3 

I don’t part of young people we’ve come up with different different work atmosphere. 


Well then to. 

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In some ways, you’re not allowed to. 

00:14:23 Speaker 2 

Do as much. 

00:14:24 Speaker 2 

As you people do, allergies and built the the equipment built the space embedded broadcast and you went along. 

00:14:24 Speaker 3 

Well, that’s true. 

00:14:32 Speaker 2 

And it must have been tremendously. 

00:14:35 Speaker 2 

Feelings and the involvement. 

00:14:40 Speaker 1 

Well, it was and. 

00:14:42 Speaker 1 

Murray took over as manager. 

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When was it exactly, Murray? 

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00:14:49 Speaker 3 

That’s when you. 

00:14:50 Speaker 3 

When Don right, then moved his head up the. 

00:14:54 Speaker 1 

The CFL. 

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Productions forgot the exact name, but it was a. 

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Production halls, which produce programs which were for sale to the network, to us or any other radio station. 

00:15:13 Speaker 1 

And Murray took over after management at the station. 

00:15:23 Speaker 1 

In in 1953, of course, we moved into television. 

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Before we leave those. 

00:15:32 Speaker 2 

Fairly early days anyway, like like when you were able to sell the spot in the early days of radio, what they would they be selling for? 

00:15:43 Speaker 1 

I really don’t know, you know. 

00:15:47 Speaker 3 

Or even in 45. 

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There were deals being made for $2.00 a spot. 

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Or worse than we do with them. 

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You have to sell a lot of spots that need to be. 


That’s right. 

00:16:03 Speaker 2 

And of course, you were still leading by 46, he. 

00:16:05 Speaker 2 

Was still pretty. 

00:16:06 Speaker 2 

Worldwide, as far as the announcing leaving so many commercial family would still be. 

00:16:12 Speaker 2 

Being done like. 

00:16:13 Speaker 3 

Well, all the live ones. 

00:16:15 Speaker 3 

I’m sorry all the local ones were live and all the national ones, most of them came on records on acetate records, but we didn’t have. 

00:16:22 Speaker 3 

The audio tape too. 

00:16:25 Speaker 3 

46 I don’t think. 

00:16:28 Speaker 3 

Remember, right during the war they developed the wire recorder and then they found the tape was superior and. 

00:16:37 Speaker 3 

I think we’re probably in the tape in about 40, maybe not to 47. 

00:16:43 Speaker 3 

You want to know how we ever lived without it? 

00:16:47 Speaker 3 

Same as videotape and television. 

00:16:49 Speaker 3 

When we did everything live. 


All right. 

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Again, you know when the station was reactivated, it must have been obvious it would not be a moneymaker, at least in the initial phase. 

00:17:09 Speaker 2 

Why would your dad or why? 

00:17:12 Speaker 2 

Would the company bother you with it? 

00:17:17 Speaker 1 

Well, initially. 

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Our father. 

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Got into broadcasting because. 

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And he was interested in in radio as an individual. 

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He was a great radio fan and used to build his own radio receivers. 

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As I did they following him. 

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I was a radio amateur. 

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Up until I got into. 

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Second or third year of high school and I. 

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Had to devote more time to my. 

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Studies and less time to my hobby. 

00:18:00 Speaker 1 

And gave up being a radio amateur, but I I held a. 

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An amateur license for many years. 

00:18:11 Speaker 1 

I call it the E3 GZ. 

00:18:16 Speaker 1 

Are known by my American friends as GZ. 

00:18:29 Speaker 1 

My father’s interest. 

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Developed naturally, I guess as radio began to develop. 

00:18:38 Speaker 1 

And because one of his brothers in law. 

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One of my wife’s my his his my mother’s his wife’s brother has some interest as well. 

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I can recall the 1st. 

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Transmitter which was. 

00:19:04 Speaker 1 

Developed by or built by my father and by his brother-in-law, it was a spark. 

00:19:14 Speaker 1 

Transmitter which went way back into the Marconi days. 

00:19:23 Speaker 1 

They endeavored to. 

00:19:25 Speaker 1 

Modulated for a voice without too much luck couldn’t. 

00:19:28 Speaker 1 

So I understand you couldn’t hear much and the voice, but you could certainly hear the spark. 

00:19:36 Speaker 1 

For his, his interest went went back really into the. 

00:19:41 Speaker 1 

During the war, First World War. 

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On the Spark transmitter. 

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I threw that transmitter out. 

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I regret it very much. 

00:19:55 Speaker 1 

It was in our house for many years. 

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After my father died, I failed as a young, as a younger man to recognize the antique value of that transmission. 

00:20:08 Speaker 1 

Pitched it up. 

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Fairly small white rabbit. 

00:20:18 Speaker 1 

Quarter the size of the table, big cars and a lot of juice big. 

00:20:23 Speaker 3 

It’s parked out about four wide. 

00:20:27 Speaker 3 

You can now put a 10 kilowatt transmitter into that same size. 

00:20:32 Speaker 2 

He probably wanted with final boy. 

00:20:35 Speaker 1 

I have no idea what it was right here. 

00:20:43 Speaker 1 

My father, I think, also believed that there was a commercial possibility in reading. 

00:20:51 Speaker 1 

And although it was a hobby with him. 

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When he had the chance, he started the station in 1922 and endeavored to. 

00:21:03 Speaker 1 

Develop it as a service to the public. 

00:21:07 Speaker 1 

Which could be sold commercially. 

00:21:12 Speaker 2 

What was when he came in? 

00:21:14 Speaker 2 

Murray, what sort of program did you put in? 

00:21:18 Speaker 2 

The replacement network shows that you lost. 

00:21:24 Speaker 3 

Well, I guess we tried to Orient them toward the local audience. 

00:21:29 Speaker 3 

Even such things as. 

00:21:32 Speaker 3 

Putting in money and selling or quiz programs which would attract people and try to develop personalities which had not been developed before or stationed and basically been in. 

00:21:43 Speaker 3 

Almost a network rebroadcasting station with no emphasis on local personalities. 

00:21:50 Speaker 3 

Try to develop some news. 

00:21:52 Speaker 3 

People took some time. 

00:21:55 Speaker 3 

Well, actually we turned it around. 

00:21:56 Speaker 3 

As I recall in a couple of years, you actually did. 

00:22:01 Speaker 3 

I guess the community really was there. 

00:22:05 Speaker 3 

Looking for an identity with the radio station which it hadn’t had. 

00:22:13 Speaker 3 

And of course, radio has since that time become just 100% locally oriented and that’s the success of many radio stations. 

00:22:22 Speaker 1 

I remember too, Marie. 

00:22:23 Speaker 1 

We developed some drama with the London Little Theatre as it was then. 

00:22:31 Speaker 1 

We had some good drama shows. 

00:22:35 Speaker 1 

From time to time. 

00:22:37 Speaker 3 

But on a day-to-day basis, it was the. 

00:22:41 Speaker 3 

Trying to develop personalities and. 

00:22:43 Speaker 3 

Got told lawyers. 

00:22:51 Speaker 3 

Speaking of the on all that was the show that I started when I was first hired by Mr. 

00:22:56 Speaker 3 

That was one of. 

00:22:57 Speaker 3 

My jobs was. 

00:22:58 Speaker 3 

Before I went to the station, went on there 7:45 in the morning. 

00:23:02 Speaker 3 

It was primarily a kind of the Gulf color transcription program. 

00:23:09 Speaker 3 

And it was Mr. Blackburn’s idea that we should get the station on there earlier, so we opened it at 7:00 in the morning. 

00:23:17 Speaker 3 

Seems pretty adequate by today’s standards, but in those days and and I started this and we didn’t have a title for it, so we ran a little contest. 

00:23:26 Speaker 3 

Advertisers and the Free Press and offered a big sum of money of $10.00 for the best, and some woman sent him his name beyond. 

00:23:35 Speaker 3 

There was a program CKLW Windsor called the Dawn Patrol and authority. 

00:23:40 Speaker 3 

She got the idea, but it was a very clever. 

00:23:43 Speaker 3 

Reversal of words and that’s how the young patrol was born. 

00:23:52 Speaker 1 

When we. 

00:23:57 Speaker 1 

As we developed the station. 

00:24:01 Speaker 1 

Can we obviously then wish to remain on 100 watts located on the top of Hotel London? 

00:24:10 Speaker 1 

And in the next frequency shuffle. 

00:24:16 Speaker 1 

Under the. 

00:24:23 Speaker 1 

Oh, and they are behaving. 

00:24:28 Speaker 1 

Our BA. 

00:24:31 Speaker 1 

We were assigned one kilowatt on 1570. 

00:24:39 Speaker 1 

Having lost our. 

00:24:43 Speaker 1 

Our basic 1922 priority by. 

00:24:48 Speaker 1 

Selling to CKLW way back when. 

00:24:54 Speaker 1 

1570 was a. 

00:24:57 Speaker 1 

A very. 

00:24:59 Speaker 1 

Poor frequency because it was near the top of the dial. 

00:25:04 Speaker 1 

And didn’t carry as far. 

00:25:09 Speaker 3 

In fact, some of the old sets couldn’t even pick it up because they weren’t properly tuned, which was the major problem. 

00:25:16 Speaker 1 

So one of my. 

00:25:19 Speaker 1 

Main jobs. 

00:25:23 Speaker 1 

Maria came with us and we got the management. 

00:25:27 Speaker 1 

End of it moving was to find a new frequency. 

00:25:32 Speaker 1 

And we finally. 

00:25:34 Speaker 1 

Came up with 980 kilocycles. 

00:25:38 Speaker 1 

Which I managed to locate. 

00:25:41 Speaker 1 

By attending a meeting in Havana, Cuba, which was on another narba meeting, I attended it as an industry observer. 

00:25:52 Speaker 1 

Through a conversation with one of the American engineers. 

00:25:58 Speaker 1 

Who was on the FCC? I learned that a station in Washington which was on 980. 

00:26:12 Speaker 1 

Was having to shift its pattern. 

00:26:16 Speaker 1 

And because it was interfering with another station nearby on an on a. 

00:26:22 Speaker 1 

Near a frequency and adjacent channel. 

00:26:28 Speaker 1 

The change of pattern that it would be required to make would mean that it would not send as much power. 

00:26:35 Speaker 1 

Toward London ON as it had been, and that this would open the channel. 

00:26:41 Speaker 1 

For use in London. 

00:26:46 Speaker 1 

Having learned that I remember jumping. 

00:26:50 Speaker 1 

On an aircraft. 

00:26:53 Speaker 1 

Leaving Havana. 

00:26:55 Speaker 1 

80 or 85 degree weather and ending up in. 

00:27:01 Speaker 1 

Montreal on my way to Ottawa in a Blizzard. 

00:27:09 Speaker 1 

I was on my way to Ottawa to put in an application for 980 color. 

00:27:16 Speaker 1 

Which ultimately succeeded we. 

00:27:22 Speaker 1 

We had a choice of frequencies and Murray strongly recommended we go for 980. 

00:27:35 Speaker 2 

In the last 25 years has been a large change in the development 1st and the B CRPC has suffered regulatory. 

00:27:46 Speaker 2 

This is something that’s near. 

00:27:47 Speaker 2 

They can. 

00:27:48 Speaker 2 

Gather in the private. 

00:27:49 Speaker 2 

Broadcasters wanted for years the private broadcasters, having asked for it and then got to a separate body weight should be better off with. 

00:28:01 Speaker 1 

And Mary and I are laughing because we were talking about this just the other day. 

00:28:10 Speaker 1 


00:28:14 Speaker 1 

Other broadcasters, of course, through the CIAB. 

00:28:18 Speaker 1 

And Jim Ellard led the campaign, criticized the CBC as the licensing and. 

00:28:27 Speaker 1 

Judge and jury as they judge and jury. 

00:28:32 Speaker 1 

They were not only the judges, but they were also the jury on their side. 

00:28:36 Speaker 1 

From a position of importance running a. 

00:28:40 Speaker 1 

Government network which? 

00:28:44 Speaker 1 

Meant that they might make decisions while they were biased and and quite interested parties. 

00:28:54 Speaker 1 

Mary and I argue the other way. 

00:29:02 Speaker 1 

That the Board of Governors, which is responsible for a national network, would know something about broadcasting. 

00:29:09 Speaker 1 

And would be in a better position to make prudent decisions. 

00:29:14 Speaker 1 

Then a group with no experience in broadcasting. 

00:29:21 Speaker 1 

And no responsibility for running a network on responsibility, only for regulating. 

00:29:29 Speaker 1 

And Mary and I. 

00:29:31 Speaker 1 

Argued hard and fought hard the other way, but without success. 

00:29:38 Speaker 3 

We even filed a brief before the 1st Power Commission Oil Commission. 


Because I guess. 

00:29:45 Speaker 3 

It was 51 to that effect we were very unpopular with some of our associates in the CAB. 

00:29:53 Speaker 1 

Right now, Michelle. 

00:29:54 Speaker 3 

The question we can’t answer can is what would have happened today had it remained under the CBC Board of Governors. 

00:30:02 Speaker 3 

We’ll never know that answer. 

00:30:04 Speaker 3 

Probably there wouldn’t have been as much growth, but I also don’t think we’d have been into some of the terrible hassles we’re in today with the. 

00:30:13 Speaker 3 

Unregulated growth or control of growth of cable. 

00:30:19 Speaker 3 

The FMS ring to know with. 

00:30:22 Speaker 3 

And so on. 

00:30:24 Speaker 3 

We, you know, we have more broadcasting services available in this country than any country in the world. 

00:30:32 Speaker 3 

More than we can afford and far more than. 

00:30:34 Speaker 3 

We can afford. 

Part 2

00:00:04 Speaker 1 

Three commercial networks and one public network and television. 

00:00:07 Speaker 1 

And here we in Canada. 

00:00:10 Speaker 1 

And television have two national English networks. 

00:00:15 Speaker 1 

2 French Networks CBC, Enterprise with that’s four. 

00:00:19 Speaker 1 

We have global, which is a regional network. 

00:00:22 Speaker 1 

And an effective network of independent stations models such as Hamilton or similar independence in Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver. 

00:00:33 Speaker 1 

And all this for 20 million people. 

00:00:35 Speaker 1 

And now they’re talking about bringing paid TV into the country. 

00:00:41 Speaker 1 

As you said once. 

00:00:44 Speaker 1 

You said this publicly, we’re. 

00:00:47 Speaker 2 

Or driving a Lincoln. 

00:00:48 Speaker 2 

We should be driving a Ford. 

00:00:51 Speaker 2 

That’s right. 

00:00:51 Speaker 2 

It’s it’s too much. 

00:00:53 Speaker 2 

And one of the problems, of course with. 

00:00:57 Speaker 2 

Any broadcasting? 

00:00:59 Speaker 2 

Operation is the extraordinary appetite for program material. 

00:01:05 Speaker 2 

And that appetite is cannot be met. 

00:01:11 Speaker 2 

Always with good material. 

00:01:15 Speaker 2 

It’s impossible to do it through the hours. 

00:01:20 Speaker 2 

A day of operation or. 

00:01:22 Speaker 2 

Are so long and they always paranam are so. 

00:01:27 Speaker 2 

Great that you you can’t put. 

00:01:29 Speaker 2 

First class material in every minute. 

00:01:33 Speaker 2 

There we are. 

00:01:34 Speaker 3 

I’ve been wondering, reading from that, I’ve been wondering with the new, with the FM regulations. 

00:01:40 Speaker 3 

Requiring court foreground programming, UN quote. If it might be some tendency to return return, you have more of the kind of local drama you’re talking about. Perhaps even go back to the concert idea, which was fairly prevalent. 

00:02:01 Speaker 3 

Are we in fact going to get more programs? 

00:02:04 Speaker 3 

In the old sense. 

00:02:05 Speaker 3 

Of a variety. 

00:02:06 Speaker 3 

Show or drama or a complete concert that we’ve been getting. 

00:02:09 Speaker 1 

And radio, you’re thinking, Ken. 

00:02:13 Speaker 3 

Roughly roughly from 1845. Later on, when we. 

00:02:17 Speaker 3 

Began to develop. 

00:02:23 Speaker 1 

Well, I would. 

00:02:24 Speaker 1 

Have thought this might be the case when the RTC came out with its original FM guidelines and then they. 

00:02:33 Speaker 1 

Put those into regulations and they were watered down a bit. 

00:02:38 Speaker 1 

But as one FM station who experimented even before they became regulations at great expense. 

00:02:45 Speaker 1 

Found that it did little to. 

00:02:48 Speaker 1 

Attract substantial audiences and also didn’t seem to gain as many kudos with the governing body when we applied for a license renewal. 

00:02:59 Speaker 1 

We got no thanks for all the things that we had done. 

00:03:02 Speaker 1 

They didn’t even acknowledge that we had done all this experimentation. 

00:03:07 Speaker 1 

So you you become a bit discouraged. 

00:03:10 Speaker 1 

And you’re competing against other FM stations, not only American, but area stations who are not doing any of this. 

00:03:16 Speaker 1 

And they’re feeding this sweet music into the house. 

00:03:20 Speaker 1 

So you have to compete with. 

00:03:23 Speaker 1 

I don’t want Mr. Blackburn’s view. 

00:03:26 Speaker 2 

Well, we certainly spent a lot of money in that experiment merely without proving anything more than that. 

00:03:32 Speaker 2 

But the average? 

00:03:35 Speaker 2 

Member of the public doesn’t want it doesn’t want foreground programming. 

00:03:40 Speaker 2 

In in that volume. 

00:03:45 Speaker 2 

The average member of the public. 

00:03:48 Speaker 2 

Isn’t particularly interested in. 

00:03:50 Speaker 2 

And long haired music either. 

00:03:54 Speaker 2 

Now, it’s true that the. 

00:03:57 Speaker 2 

The minority audience has to be considered. 

00:04:01 Speaker 2 

Particularly on that film. 

00:04:03 Speaker 2 

And we acknowledge this and endeavor to do something above it. 

00:04:06 Speaker 1 

Yes, we have about 3 hours or more a day of. 

00:04:10 Speaker 1 

Classical programming. Classical. 

00:04:15 Speaker 2 

It’s interesting though. 

00:04:16 Speaker 2 

You find even the people who should be interested in classical. 

00:04:20 Speaker 2 

Music. Don’t listen to it. 

00:04:24 Speaker 2 

FM or AM radio for the most part they. 

00:04:29 Speaker 2 

They seem to tend to listen to records in their own homes. 

00:04:33 Speaker 2 

On their home phones. 

00:04:35 Speaker 3 

It’s just a key. 

00:04:36 Speaker 3 

So since the regulation was viewed, you may foreground program, what do we what do you do? 

00:04:42 Speaker 3 

What sort of programming we’re going to have? 

00:04:46 Speaker 1 

Well, we’re. 

00:04:50 Speaker 1 

Well, I I’ll give you one answer that Ken. 

00:04:54 Speaker 1 

According to our interpretation of their definition of foreground. 

00:05:00 Speaker 1 

Any musical program. 

00:05:03 Speaker 1 

Which has. 

00:05:06 Speaker 1 

With which the the conversation relates to the artist, and so on is foreground. 

00:05:12 Speaker 1 

And if you talk about the artist and what his background and how and so on this foreground so. 

00:05:17 Speaker 1 

We’re running a simple thing called by request. 

00:05:21 Speaker 1 

We run two half hours daily. 

00:05:24 Speaker 1 

And we feature an artist or a group. 

00:05:28 Speaker 1 

For a composer, which one of our listeners has requested and we research it? 

00:05:34 Speaker 1 

I talk about it for 1/2 now. This is foreground programming and this seems to have more appeal to the public. 

00:05:41 Speaker 1 

Then going into some half hour of. 

00:05:42 Speaker 1 

Talk of something which we tried. 

00:05:47 Speaker 1 

And so in order to meet the regulations and also to appeal to the public, we find that this by a request, for example. 

00:05:56 Speaker 1 

Is one of the answers. 

00:06:00 Speaker 2 

Listener input input. 

00:06:04 Speaker 2 

Always affect them. 

00:06:06 Speaker 2 

Can just for a moment. 

00:06:07 Speaker 2 

I would like to go back to. 

00:06:11 Speaker 2 

The regulatory authority, one thing which. 

00:06:16 Speaker 2 

Marie and I were in some major park. 

00:06:20 Speaker 2 

Responsible for which was. 

00:06:23 Speaker 2 

I think of some considerable value to the broadcasting industry. 

00:06:28 Speaker 2 

Was to. 

00:06:30 Speaker 2 

Convinced Robert Fowler, who was chairman of the 2nd. 

00:06:36 Speaker 2 

Follower Committee, who would call the committee then? 

00:06:39 Speaker 2 

Not a royal Commission. 

00:06:44 Speaker 2 

And also convinced members of the government who had to make the decision that cable systems should be considered as. 

00:06:55 Speaker 2 

One important. 

00:06:57 Speaker 2 

There’s the important component of the. 

00:07:01 Speaker 2 

National broadcasting system and should come under regulation of the then BBG. 

00:07:09 Speaker 2 

Which later became the PRTSC. 

00:07:15 Speaker 2 

It was. 

00:07:18 Speaker 2 

I guess Blackburn, who drew the attention of the BBG for the first time. 

00:07:25 Speaker 2 

To the importance of. 

00:07:29 Speaker 2 

Of cable. 

00:07:32 Speaker 2 

That wasn’t because I was any smarter than anyone else, particularly, but rather. 

00:07:37 Speaker 2 

Because the first cable system was located in London ON and we. 

00:07:42 Speaker 2 

Had experience. 

00:07:44 Speaker 2 

And when I told the BBG on one occasion. 

00:07:49 Speaker 2 

That a cable system. 

00:07:51 Speaker 2 

Meant that there would be. 

00:07:53 Speaker 2 

Up to 12 local stations. 

00:07:57 Speaker 2 

With local television stations. 

00:08:00 Speaker 2 

And we didn’t foresee at that time a carrying of FM mount cable for a little brown. 

00:08:07 Speaker 2 

Little brown box. 

00:08:08 Speaker 2 

Although we did talk Murray about possibility, the almost infinite capability of the coaxial cable to carry intelligence of this nature. 

00:08:18 Speaker 2 

And I remember mentioning 100 stations at one point in time and that when I gave that address. 

00:08:25 Speaker 1 

That was mind boggling at that time. 

00:08:28 Speaker 2 

The the Commission was quite. 

00:08:35 Speaker 2 

Quite startled. 

00:08:37 Speaker 2 

Or the Board of Broadcast governors was quite startled by the information I provided, and we had requests for further information from several members of the Commission I remembered. 

00:08:49 Speaker 2 

Commissioner from Vancouver, Maria can’t remember his name. 

00:08:53 Speaker 1 

Joe. Joe. Somebody’s dead. 

00:09:00 Speaker 2 

They hadn’t. 

00:09:04 Speaker 2 

The potential of cable. 

00:09:12 Speaker 2 

Finally, cable did come under. 

00:09:16 Speaker 2 

Control and the argument we used was a natural and sensible argument that. 

00:09:22 Speaker 2 

If we were going are going to have. 

00:09:26 Speaker 2 

One broadcasting system in Canada, which is. 

00:09:30 Speaker 2 

Provided for. 

00:09:32 Speaker 2 

In the Broadcasting Act, as was then and still is. 

00:09:37 Speaker 2 

Cable must become a part of. 

00:09:40 Speaker 2 

Of that system, because it naturally is. 

00:09:43 Speaker 2 

And as a part of the system, it had to be regulated by the same regulatory authority. 

00:09:49 Speaker 2 

That handle. 

00:09:51 Speaker 2 

What I. 

00:09:56 Speaker 2 

The title of broadcasting, which might ultimately. 

00:10:00 Speaker 2 

Almost cease to exist because of the potential of cable. 

00:10:05 Speaker 2 

I remember speaking at that time. 

00:10:10 Speaker 2 

That it could well be. 

00:10:15 Speaker 2 

The distribution of broadcasting programs television at that time increased through the increase in the number of. 

00:10:25 Speaker 2 

Cable homes through the expansion of cable systems that. 

00:10:30 Speaker 2 

The only reason for existence of a traditional over the air. 

00:10:35 Speaker 2 

Television transmitter would be to serve people in rural areas who were too far apart to be served economically by cable. 

00:10:45 Speaker 3 

You know, with the satellite, we’ve even that maybe we. 

00:10:48 Speaker 2 

Factor and it could be that the. 

00:10:52 Speaker 2 

The traditional. 

00:10:54 Speaker 2 

Television stations will. 

00:10:57 Speaker 2 

Cease to exist. 

00:10:58 Speaker 2 

Of the transmitters will cease to exist. 

00:11:00 Speaker 2 

I think the stations will. 

00:11:03 Speaker 2 

Will remain as program producers. 

00:11:07 Speaker 2 

But they might not transmit by. 

00:11:11 Speaker 2 

All of the fancy equipment we have out on Commissioners Hill. 

00:11:17 Speaker 2 

Or the hill on Commissioners Road. 

00:11:28 Speaker 2 

Which represents a substantial investment. 

00:11:33 Speaker 3 

Me. When? When you broadcast me. Actually, we with CRC came in and again faced with the possibility of cable inside illites so-called Wired city concept. 

00:11:45 Speaker 3 

What’s the series? 

00:11:46 Speaker 3 

You see what we were doing at the time during the buying time when we established one of these, if you like the programming and recording the artistic side. 

00:11:56 Speaker 3 

Could get with the cables. 

00:11:59 Speaker 3 

With the satellite you said the limitations and frequencies almost disappeared. 

00:12:07 Speaker 3 

Secretary can see. 

00:12:08 Speaker 3 

Has impact from all these. 

00:12:10 Speaker 3 

Are we going to? 

00:12:11 Speaker 3 

Are we going to continue to have many? 

00:12:12 Speaker 3 

Broadcast system with any. 

00:12:20 Speaker 2 

Mary and I were fussing about that the other day to a degree also. 

00:12:25 Speaker 2 

One wonders. 

00:12:29 Speaker 2 

Whether it’s. 

00:12:32 Speaker 2 

Will be possible because of public pressure. 

00:12:36 Speaker 2 

For the government through the. 

00:12:40 Speaker 2 

Regulatory authority to see RRTC T is a film called. 

00:12:50 Speaker 2 

Continue to. 

00:12:56 Speaker 2 

People from. 

00:12:59 Speaker 2 

Watching a large volume of American television, and it’s particularly applicable, of course to television and to a degree now on FM radio. 

00:13:11 Speaker 2 

As you know recently. 

00:13:13 Speaker 2 

There was a. 

00:13:15 Speaker 2 

Consumers protest meeting in London with over the. 

00:13:19 Speaker 2 

Removal of some American FM stations from the cable systems here, and the PRTSC temporarily has vowed to that. 

00:13:28 Speaker 2 

Consumerism, consumer pressure, on health. 

00:13:32 Speaker 2 

Has withdrawn its proposed. 

00:13:38 Speaker 2 

Removing American FM from Canadian. 

00:13:41 Speaker 2 

Cable system. 

00:13:43 Speaker 1 

Yeah, yes. 

00:13:44 Speaker 1 

Tomorrow they’re going to have a public hearing on it earlier the New Year. 

00:13:47 Speaker 1 

I think submissions can be made till December 1. 

00:13:50 Speaker 3 

I I found it curious and isolated FM. 

00:13:53 Speaker 3 

Move that, they simply said. 

00:13:56 Speaker 3 

Take the whole pool pools rather than doing the same priority. 

00:14:00 Speaker 3 

Waiting with the television. 

00:14:03 Speaker 3 

Wouldn’t that make? 

00:14:04 Speaker 3 

It much sense sense to be consistent. 

00:14:07 Speaker 3 

With the deal. 

00:14:08 Speaker 3 

Isn’t, so you don’t be fine. 

00:14:09 Speaker 3 

You know, if you’ve got anyone locked after you carried the local station and CBC. 

00:14:18 Speaker 3 

I have not yet seen anywhere in explanation they’re thinking. 

00:14:21 Speaker 3 

On this was totally. 

00:14:25 Speaker 2 

I think over a period of time it will be impossible. 

00:14:29 Speaker 2 

For the Canadian government. 

00:14:32 Speaker 2 

To force people to watch Canadian television. 

00:14:39 Speaker 2 

Removing from them the privilege of. 

00:14:42 Speaker 2 

Watching American television. 

00:14:45 Speaker 2 

Rather, we have to be able, in Canada, under the regulations of broadcasters, to provide the kind of programming which the public wants and will will watch or will listen to. 

00:15:01 Speaker 2 

If we can do that. 

00:15:03 Speaker 2 

If the government recognizes that need, then we will have Canadian audience for Canadian stations. 

00:15:10 Speaker 2 

If the government fails to recognize that. 

00:15:14 Speaker 2 

As I think to a degree, it is now failing in part with me in part. 

00:15:21 Speaker 2 

We will be turning audience over to American stations. 

00:15:26 Speaker 2 

Because the public will not. 

00:15:29 Speaker 2 

In my view, stand for. 

00:15:33 Speaker 2 

Or will then permit the government to deny them the privilege of watching American television or listening to American FM if they choose to do so. 

00:15:42 Speaker 3 

Problem in reading between the CBC FM. 

00:15:48 Speaker 3 

And other Canadian actually station and encourage specialized nature. 

00:15:53 Speaker 3 

But there is very little. 

00:15:55 Speaker 3 

And they can get your American attention. 

00:15:58 Speaker 3 

Very contrast that with the very expensive programming that they’re able to undertake the television and if you. 

00:16:06 Speaker 3 

Can’t for financial. 

00:16:10 Speaker 3 

Should be less concerned in radio than they’re crazy. 

00:16:14 Speaker 1 

Well, I think there’s my point of view is less concern to a degree can. 

00:16:20 Speaker 1 

But even in FM, an American border station can be an all jazz station. 

00:16:25 Speaker 1 

For example, you can’t be an all jazz station. 

00:16:30 Speaker 1 

In Canada. 

00:16:31 Speaker 1 

You’ve got to provide a variety of things. 

00:16:34 Speaker 1 

You know the foreground program, the mosaic format, and all these things. 

00:16:39 Speaker 1 

So if you get enough, you get an old jazz station coming in and a. 

00:16:44 Speaker 1 

New music type station and you get an all classical music station. 

00:16:49 Speaker 1 

It’s pretty hard for any individual Canadian station. 

00:16:53 Speaker 1 

Stack up to there. 

00:16:55 Speaker 1 

Which was one of the outcries, I think, from the public that they lost the university station in Michigan, which had a certain programming which appeal. 

00:17:05 Speaker 1 

There, there’s a jazz station out of Detroit or Cleveland AM. 

00:17:11 Speaker 1 

It’s a little different because we don’t have the same type. 

00:17:14 Speaker 1 

Programming regulations or restrictions at the present time about the only restriction we have in am program is that the music must be at least 30% Canadian by various definition. 

00:17:29 Speaker 1 

And that isn’t too hard to live. 

00:17:32 Speaker 1 

You’ve got to watch it, but it’s not. 

00:17:34 Speaker 1 

Too difficult so. 

00:17:36 Speaker 1 

We’re in a sense, able to compete on this with the same ground. 

00:17:39 Speaker 1 

Rules in AM. 

00:17:42 Speaker 1 

Case and potec, CKLW and Windsor radio. 

00:17:46 Speaker 1 

It’s the top one or two stage station in the Detroit market. 

00:17:51 Speaker 1 

It’s primarily a rock format and very well done that gets back to Mr. Blackburn’s point. 

00:17:58 Speaker 1 

If you don’t tie our hands behind our backs and give us the chance to compete. 

00:18:04 Speaker 1 

Give us some flexibility. I think we can do it as Canadians, but in television we have to be 60% Canadian. 

00:18:12 Speaker 1 

And in prime time we must be 55%. We can’t put all your Canadian and non prime. 

00:18:18 Speaker 1 

Pretty tough to hit that. 

00:18:20 Speaker 1 

8:00 to 11:00 o’clock strip in the US net would throw at you every night. 

00:18:25 Speaker 1 

Was 60% or 55% Canadian program. 

00:18:29 Speaker 3 

Referring time is for 6:00 o’clock to midnight. 

00:18:33 Speaker 3 

When you do the turmoil in the. 

00:18:34 Speaker 1 

Newsroom while we do the news, you know, 6:00 to 7:00 and 11:00 to 11:40 at night. 

00:18:43 Speaker 1 

Well, the news is great. 

00:18:44 Speaker 1 

This we can beat the Americans with our news. 

00:18:47 Speaker 1 

They do it well. 

00:18:49 Speaker 1 

But boy, it’s tough to do it with much else, that’s. 

00:18:53 Speaker 1 

We’ve entered into a new. 

00:18:56 Speaker 1 

News information type program in the morning can you’re probably familiar with this year called Morning Break five days a week. 

00:19:03 Speaker 1 

It’s costing us a pile of money to do this, and it’s the first chance we’ve had to get into morning programming on television as we’ve been tied to the network. 

00:19:13 Speaker 1 

But now, since Oocca has its own outlook outlet here, we’ve been relieved of some of this. 

00:19:19 Speaker 1 

Educational programming. 

00:19:21 Speaker 1 

Some of the responsibilities. 

00:19:23 Speaker 1 

So this is our first chance to be able. 

00:19:24 Speaker 1 

Do something. 

00:19:26 Speaker 1 

The CBC should have been doing an early morning show like Canada AM on CTV and they never done it in 24 years of television program in this country and our national network does not have a morning show and the Americans have an excellent morning show. 

00:19:45 Speaker 1 

Of hours 1 morning. 

00:19:46 Speaker 2 

And one that I always watch when I have a chance is today and it’s first class and even they have that. 

00:19:52 Speaker 1 

We should. 

00:19:53 Speaker 2 

Yeah, with local cut Inns by the affiliate. 

00:19:57 Speaker 1 

So we’re trying to do. 

00:19:59 Speaker 1 

In mid morning an experiment, it’s very expensive, but we’re trying to do exactly what Mr. 

00:20:06 Speaker 1 

Blackburn is saying is to try and relate more with our audience through things of interest to them in Western Ontario. 

00:20:20 Speaker 2 

So broadcasting historic. 

00:20:23 Speaker 2 

Broadcasting policy on Canada. 

00:20:26 Speaker 2 

May lay a great egg count as the point I’m making. 

00:20:30 Speaker 3 

Well, it isn’t because the policy was wrong in the 1st place was because regulations such as Canadian. 

00:20:37 Speaker 3 

Were not enforced back when they were. 

00:20:40 Speaker 3 

Really contained in the. 

00:20:44 Speaker 3 

First year report itself where they recommend. 

00:20:49 Speaker 3 

Preference for Canadian talent and in fact nothing much being done about it there for years. 

00:20:58 Speaker 3 

When we’ve been better off to start. 

00:21:00 Speaker 3 

It out tough. 

00:21:01 Speaker 3 

And to have eased out whether rather than what? 

00:21:03 Speaker 3 

We did was. 

00:21:04 Speaker 3 

Ease into it and only weakly become very tough. 

00:21:09 Speaker 2 

I think basically it’s because whereas Canadians are different from Americans in many respects. 

00:21:17 Speaker 2 

They happen to like the same kind of entertainment the Americans produce. 

00:21:23 Speaker 2 

And we’ll watch it or listen to it when they have an opportunity. 

00:21:28 Speaker 2 

And we have to compete with it if we want. 

00:21:31 Speaker 2 

To produce audience on Canadian programming and our national network has tended to be a little bit long haired. 

00:21:44 Speaker 2 

Not entirely, but as well we know. 

00:21:47 Speaker 2 

Had some good. 

00:21:50 Speaker 2 

Like entertainment shows on the network. 

00:21:57 Speaker 2 

Try to think of that. 

00:21:59 Speaker 1 

By and large, they’re in serious programming. 

00:22:02 Speaker 2 


00:22:06 Speaker 1 

And you can’t fault them on their interpretation of their mandate particular. 

00:22:11 Speaker 1 

They think they should be doing. 

00:22:16 Speaker 2 

Felt if their mandate is to help the whole calendar together through broadcasting. 

00:22:23 Speaker 2 

And Canada? 

00:22:25 Speaker 2 

That mandate can be successful only if there are Canadians. 

00:22:31 Speaker 2 

Listening to and watching the Canadian system. 

00:22:35 Speaker 2 

And we have to compete with the American system because the American system is being brought in here. 

00:22:42 Speaker 2 

Buy cable on television. 

00:22:46 Speaker 2 

By cable for FM radio. 

00:22:49 Speaker 2 

And it comes naturally over the air and amadia. 

00:22:55 Speaker 3 

Would there have been any way of stopping them? 

00:22:59 Speaker 2 

In my judgment, no. 

00:23:04 Speaker 2 

Our peoples like the same thing. 

00:23:07 Speaker 2 

And when you get down to the real nitty gritty, you get down to. 

00:23:12 Speaker 2 

The individual decisions of individual television viewers and radio listeners as to what they want. 

00:23:19 Speaker 3 

So was the CRDC then too late, or was long? 

00:23:23 Speaker 3 

And when it’s between to do and I’m not trying to get. 

00:23:25 Speaker 3 

You to hang yourself. 

00:23:27 Speaker 2 

It’s wrong and what it’s trying to do and no judgement and we have. 

00:23:31 Speaker 2 

Pointed this out. 

00:23:34 Speaker 1 

I think in fairness to them and I you made this point some years ago, prior to 1960 or after 1968 when they came into power after the new Broadcasting Act. 

00:23:46 Speaker 1 

They were caught with this problem, which was not by their own making. 

00:23:49 Speaker 1 

That is the cable problem. 

00:23:51 Speaker 1 

That’s right. 

00:23:51 Speaker 1 

It is. 

00:23:51 Speaker 1 

In Canada, existed in places like London and Toronto and Vancouver. 

00:23:59 Speaker 1 

And then the people in the rest of Canada, why can’t we have these systems in Edmonton and Calgary, Sudbury, now we’ve got to microwave the signals in. 

00:24:07 Speaker 1 

But why? 

00:24:08 Speaker 1 

If it’s technically possible, why? 

00:24:09 Speaker 1 

Can’t we have? 

00:24:11 Speaker 1 

And only was a compelling argument, and you said it was a political issue and there was no way to see our TC could win on it. 

00:24:19 Speaker 1 

They had to give him with the public. 

00:24:21 Speaker 1 

What they’ve done. 

00:24:24 Speaker 2 

Any government trying to remain in power by preventing or and preventing. 

00:24:31 Speaker 2 

Cable systems from developing service for Canadians would have been defeated at the polls, I’m sure. 

00:24:38 Speaker 2 

It was an issue that could not be. 

00:24:44 Speaker 2 

Successfully avoided. 

00:24:47 Speaker 2 

Canadian wanted. 

00:24:49 Speaker 2 

To watch and listen to American television. 

00:24:53 Speaker 2 

And we know now FM programs they already have. 

00:24:57 Speaker 2 

America AM. 

00:24:59 Speaker 3 

Worded in with hope they hindered the situation that they had originally adopted the year report. 

00:25:03 Speaker 3 

That was for a nationalized broadcasting system in its entirety. 

00:25:11 Speaker 2 

It would. 

00:25:15 Speaker 2 

The adoption of that report would have meant much poorer. 

00:25:20 Speaker 2 

Service to the Canadian public in my opinion. 

00:25:24 Speaker 2 

You remove the. 

00:25:26 Speaker 2 

Private broadcasters. 

00:25:30 Speaker 2 

From the picture you remove a lot of public satisfaction. 

00:25:34 Speaker 2 

In my job. 

00:25:36 Speaker 1 

Factory no local server. 

00:25:38 Speaker 1 

The England went the opposite way. 

00:25:40 Speaker 1 

It had that system, Ken, and then it. 

00:25:44 Speaker 1 

License first of all, have the television stations and eventually private radio station because it what the situation would have had with Canada with the national system listening to America. 

00:25:59 Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah, I’ve been trying to think of some. 

00:26:03 Speaker 3 

Equitable solution that we indeed. 

00:26:06 Speaker 3 

Few people to to compete in the whole it keeps coming back to the question of the production cost programs, where the Americans produce some for 230 million you produce. 

00:26:18 Speaker 3 

Them for 22. 

00:26:20 Speaker 2 

And they produce programs which the Canadian average Canadian wishes to watch. 



00:26:30 Speaker 3 


00:26:34 Speaker 3 

Certainly the columns here, and given that many writers actually listens. 

00:26:39 Speaker 3 

In Hollywood and. 

00:26:42 Speaker 3 

Beautiful downtown breadmakers. 

00:26:47 Speaker 2 

We don’t seem to have in Canada as yet the. 

00:26:53 Speaker 2 

Producing program producing skills that. 

00:26:58 Speaker 2 

One that sees in the United States and in in England. 

00:27:03 Speaker 2 

Why this is I don’t know. 

00:27:06 Speaker 2 

I don’t understand it because surely we should be able to do it. 

00:27:10 Speaker 2 

But some of the efforts which we have made the CBC has made. 

00:27:16 Speaker 2 

I’ve laid rather big eggs and they’re they’re real. 

00:27:23 Speaker 2 

What they hope to be outstanding. 

00:27:26 Speaker 2 

Television program productions. 

00:27:29 Speaker 2 

Trying to think it up. 

00:27:31 Speaker 2 

John was probably the one of the prizes. 

00:27:36 Speaker 2 

And the egg laying to park. 

00:27:42 Speaker 2 

Very sad and yet. 

00:27:46 Speaker 2 

We can, we can and do import. 

00:27:50 Speaker 2 

English programs which are. 

00:27:53 Speaker 2 

Excellent. Those that are important. 

00:27:58 Speaker 2 

Such as upstairs, downstairs. 

00:28:01 Speaker 2 

With a new one on. 

00:28:04 Speaker 2 

Saw it last evening. 

00:28:05 Speaker 2 

It’s on TV Ontario. 

00:28:08 Speaker 2 

You can’t remember the. 

00:28:10 Speaker 2 

Title level English production which is very interesting. 

00:28:21 Speaker 2 

What it is we can’t do this sort of work ourselves and kind of I don’t know what we seem to be, at least. 

00:28:26 Speaker 2 

We haven’t done it. 

00:28:33 Speaker 2 

Well, this is a long way from history, Ken I, although it will be history 100 years from now, if the tape lasts as. 

00:28:40 Speaker 2 

Long as that. 

00:28:43 Speaker 3 

I think we’ve got it all down.