Norm Bonnell


00:00:03 Speaker 1 

This is an interview with non Bonnell, President of Paul Motherwell Limited, conducted in Toronto by Phil Stone in May 1988. 

00:00:11 Speaker 1 

None. But I’ll began his career in broadcasting in 1953, when he worked for C KWS, Kingston as a time salesman. He joined their television arm in 1955, also as a salesman. 

00:00:21 Speaker 1 

And in the fall of that year joined Paul Mulvihill, Limited as a sales Rep he has been with that company since that time, and in 1987 became its president. 

00:00:30 Speaker 1 

Known back in 1953 at CCWS, as my memory has it, Roy Hoffstetter was the man behind the scene. 

00:00:37 Speaker 2 

Yes, Roy was manager of the radio station CCWS at the time that I joined the station. 

00:00:45 Speaker 2 

Roy was a remarkably great person to get along with a person that was, I think. 

00:00:53 Speaker 2 

A great leader, particularly for a young person joining. 

00:00:57 Speaker 2 

A radio station at a time when radio was really in its infancy. 

00:01:03 Speaker 2 

At the time, I was working directly for. 

00:01:07 Speaker 2 

A sales manager by the name of Al Jones, and I think, Phil, you’ll remember Al Jones. 

00:01:13 Speaker 2 

Al was a very colorful individual. 

00:01:16 Speaker 2 

Actually a showman more than a salesman, but he gave CCWS a great deal of color. 

00:01:24 Speaker 1 

But those kind of people work in radio now. 

00:01:27 Speaker 2 

I think that we have seen quite a transformation in the industry over the past 20 years. 

00:01:33 Speaker 2 

Obviously it’s more business oriented. 

00:01:36 Speaker 2 

We don’t seem to see the same kind of personalities that we saw back in the 40s and 50s. 

00:01:44 Speaker 2 

There seemed to be a greater percentage of people that. 

00:01:48 Speaker 2 

Come into the industry from show business and from the music industry. 

00:01:55 Speaker 2 

Whereas today there is more and more people that are coming from very, very splendid academic backgrounds, with the number of new colleges that are involved in radio and TV arts. 

00:02:07 Speaker 1 

When you started in radio, why did you go into that business? 

00:02:11 Speaker 1 

What led you to it? 

00:02:12 Speaker 2 

Very frankly, I think that I was. 

00:02:17 Speaker 2 

Impressed with what I saw with other people, I had an uncle that was in the business at the time, who was was CFRB. 

00:02:26 Speaker 2 

His name was Waldo Holden. 

00:02:28 Speaker 2 

Waldo was sales manager. 

00:02:30 Speaker 2 

He was quite a charismatic individual. 

00:02:33 Speaker 2 

Waldo was the kind of person that probably could have sold literally refrigerators to an Eskimo, but I was quite taken with Waldo and I knew very little about radio, except that it was my impression that Waldo was doing extremely well finance. 

00:02:51 Speaker 2 

And I thought that that had an awful lot of appeal, plus the fact that at that time, television was just on the verge of getting established in Canada. 

00:03:02 Speaker 2 

And when you stop to consider the growth opportunity in broadcasting back in the mid 50s, it was a field that an awful lot of young people wanted to pursue and certainly I was one of those. 

00:03:15 Speaker 1 

You went from selling radio, and let’s call it a middle market, which I think it defines Kingston. 

00:03:22 Speaker 1 

Yeah, to becoming a national sales Rep with Mulverhill selling radio in a market like Kingston would be a lot. 

00:03:28 Speaker 2 

Different with it? 

00:03:29 Speaker 2 

Yes, entirely different, entirely different. 

00:03:33 Speaker 2 

To go back and reflect on what it was like in Kingston from a salesman’s point of view. 

00:03:42 Speaker 2 

Approximately 60% of our business was realized through local retail sales, whereas about 40% of the business generated for that radio station or for any other middle market station would have come from national advertiser support. 

00:04:00 Speaker 2 

Whereas in a market such as Toronto at that time with three or four radio stations. 

00:04:07 Speaker 2 

Those stations were depending on their income, largely from the national advertiser, probably in excess of 80 to 90% of their business was realized from the National advertiser as opposed to only 10 or 15% from the retailer. 

00:04:24 Speaker 1 

You had to pound the pavement ensuring this. 

00:04:25 Speaker 2 

Yes, we pound the pavement and. 

00:04:28 Speaker 2 

One of the reasons why we did was that. 

00:04:31 Speaker 2 

We worked for. 

00:04:33 Speaker 2 

CCWS but CCWS as you well know, Phil was one of the stations owned by Northern Broadcasting. 

00:04:41 Speaker 2 

And Northern Broadcasting was a company that was owned by Roy Thompson. 

00:04:46 Speaker 2 

And Roy Thompson. 

00:04:49 Speaker 2 

Today is so highly regarded for what he did in order to inspire an awful lot of young people and to give young people an opportunity to come into the industry. 

00:04:59 Speaker 2 

Now there was also a selfish motive on the part of probably Roy, and that was they wanted to have a very frugal operation, a very cost oriented operation. 

00:05:10 Speaker 2 

And as a consequence, in order to fully staff an organization, it probably dictated the use of an awful lot of young and inexperienced people. 

00:05:20 Speaker 2 

But tremendously opportunistic for the individual to be associated with the northern broadcasting. 

00:05:28 Speaker 1 

Group did the time salesman work totally on Commission in those days or was there? 

00:05:31 Speaker 1 

A basic pay and Commission. 

00:05:36 Speaker 2 

Remunerative plan that was provided to me at that time. If I recall correctly, going back to 1953. 

00:05:43 Speaker 2 

I worked on the basis of $200.00 per month. 

00:05:48 Speaker 2 

And I had a Commission. 

00:05:50 Speaker 2 

On override. 

00:05:53 Speaker 2 

A Commission of I believe 1/2 a 1% on a national. Pardon me on 1/2 a 1% on long term. 

00:06:02 Speaker 2 

And I believe on what they used to deem as casual business, a Commission rate of 1%. So your point about the change is is well taken today where we find most salesman working in the retail marketplace working on a Commission basis or a pure Commission basis with a a draw. 

00:06:22 Speaker 2 

Plus, the Commission arrangement at that time, it was probably 80% salary and about 20% the result of Commission. 

00:06:33 Speaker 1 

A company like Paul Mulvehill Limited, which is a replicating that the late Paul founder, I believe in 1950. Yes. Saved stations from having to have somebody call on national advertisers and national advertising agencies. They had somebody who represented them at that level as. 

00:06:49 Speaker 2 

Not true. 

00:06:49 Speaker 2 

Yes, yes. 

00:06:51 Speaker 2 

As a matter of fact, Phil, you know when you talk about Paul. 

00:06:53 Speaker 2 

Bobby hill. 

00:06:55 Speaker 2 

And Paul Mulvihill Limited today, Paul Mulvihill Limited, today, has changed, and his financial. 

00:07:01 Speaker 2 

Structure a great deal. Over the years, the change has been brought about by the change of course in the industry. When I first joined Paul back in 1955. 

00:07:13 Speaker 2 

He had one gentleman in Montreal by the name of Murray McIver. 

00:07:17 Speaker 2 

Who was manager of the Montreal operation? 

00:07:20 Speaker 2 

And he had a chap by the name of Alex Bedard selling radio in Toronto with him. 

00:07:26 Speaker 2 

One secretary. 

00:07:27 Speaker 2 

And I was the new addition. So we had in essence 12344 man team. 

00:07:35 Speaker 2 

I was looking after television. 

00:07:37 Speaker 2 

Alex Bidard was looking after radio for Paul in Toronto and of course Paul had a dual responsibility plus the administration. 

00:07:47 Speaker 2 

At that time. 

00:07:49 Speaker 2 

When I call on advertising agencies. 

00:07:52 Speaker 2 

I call on advertising agencies representing really only one television station, the first television station that Paul had back in 1955. 

00:08:01 Speaker 2 

Was a station called CCVC, RTB and Berry. 

00:08:05 Speaker 2 

And you’ll recall Phil, and that station was owned by Ralph. 

00:08:10 Speaker 2 

And that opportunity to work with Ralph was the first time that Paul had been given the opportunity to brancho from selling radio stations into television. 

00:08:21 Speaker 2 

So it was a very memorable period. 

00:08:25 Speaker 2 

It was a period when it was terribly frustrating because the advertiser was still not quite convinced the television could do the job. 

00:08:35 Speaker 2 

Probably more importantly, the concern at that time was the limited amount of penetration of television homes. 

00:08:43 Speaker 2 

They knew that every home had virtually a radio set. 

00:08:48 Speaker 2 

But television at that point was just getting started. 

00:08:51 Speaker 1 

So the saturation wasn’t there like. 

00:08:53 Speaker 1 

Today, out at all. 

00:08:54 Speaker 2 

No, no, it’s not at all. 

00:08:55 Speaker 1 

Why would a station go to Pull Mobile Hill rather than another Rep house? 

00:09:00 Speaker 1 

What was the difference? 

00:09:01 Speaker 1 

What made the selection more sensible? 

00:09:04 Speaker 2 

Well, that’s a pretty good point, Phil. 

00:09:06 Speaker 2 

When I stop and think about Paul Mulvihill at that time, there was. 

00:09:11 Speaker 2 

One representative host by the name of Hardy, really. 

00:09:13 Speaker 2 

On TV, that was chiefly involved or principally involved with stations and. 

00:09:21 Speaker 2 

And at that time, they did have CKCOV and Kitchener because of the financial interrelationship with famous players and Hardy. 

00:09:31 Speaker 2 

At the same time. 

00:09:33 Speaker 2 

The leading sales organization was, without question all Canada. 

00:09:38 Speaker 2 

All Canada had most of the television stations. 

00:09:41 Speaker 2 

And they had most of the television stations because of the tremendous undertaking and commitments that was made by. 

00:09:50 Speaker 2 

People such as Real Thompson and Ross Mccrees to get into television to see all Canada to get well established in television and they were successful in that call. 

00:10:01 Speaker 2 

One of the reasons why Mulvehill had appeal was that we only had one television station, so a person such as Ralph Snelgrove, who was. 

00:10:14 Speaker 2 

Capable businessmen recognize the fact that there would be that total commitment virtually, that total commitment to his. 

00:10:22 Speaker 2 

And to concentrate it solely on CKBB and Barry not only meant that we would be calling on advertising agencies, but when his market or his station was not included on a television market list. 

00:10:37 Speaker 2 

Then it was our responsibility or my responsibility to go directly to the client. 

00:10:42 Speaker 2 

To make certain that a fully comprehensive sales presentation was made on behalf of that station. 

00:10:49 Speaker 2 

In my estimation, and in my recollection, there is no question in my mind that it was a very, very astute move on the part of Ralph Snelgrove. 

00:10:59 Speaker 1 

What the red? 

00:11:01 Speaker 1 

Right from the start, accepted by stations, or whether a little skeptical to they wait and see. 

00:11:06 Speaker 2 

I think they were. 

00:11:08 Speaker 2 

Very anxious to become associated with associated with the Rep host because very frankly, revenue was the problem. 

00:11:15 Speaker 2 

It didn’t really matter at that point where the revenue came from. 

00:11:19 Speaker 2 

They did have some revenue which constituted their revenue base, namely CBC Network revenue. 

00:11:26 Speaker 2 

As an affiliate of the CBC network. 

00:11:31 Speaker 2 

There was some local business, but local was at that point where it was just getting. 

00:11:38 Speaker 2 

Accepted by the retailer, and that acceptance was costing the station a great deal of money and trying to get the advertiser educated about the advantages of using television versus using other media. 

00:11:51 Speaker 2 

So there wasn’t an enormous amount of resistance to becoming associated with the national Rep it was a very essential part of the whole scheme as far as marketing their station. 

00:12:05 Speaker 2 

It wasn’t as an example, Phil. 

00:12:07 Speaker 2 

Too long after that, I think it was just a matter of about two months later that Paul acquired his station C. 

00:12:15 Speaker 2 

FCHTVI believe in North Bay and that station became the second station that Malville Hill represented. 

00:12:26 Speaker 2 

And I believe within a year there was another station named the Good old Conrad Levine station CF. 

00:12:33 Speaker 2 

CLTV and Timmins. 

00:12:35 Speaker 2 

So it was inside of a year, a year and a half. 

00:12:37 Speaker 2 

Paul had three television stations. 

00:12:42 Speaker 2 

That was between 1956 and 1960. Now there was a period, if you will recall, Phil, where from 1956 to 1960 what we had was predominantly 3 or 4 television representative houses representing CBC affiliated stations. 

00:13:04 Speaker 2 

CBC for English of course, and Radio Canada and Quebec. 

00:13:10 Speaker 2 

It wasn’t until 1960 that we saw the inception of the second service, and of course the second service constituted CTV service and it was launched with the outset of the CFTO operation here in Toronto. 

00:13:27 Speaker 1 

The idea of a Rep house, I would think, was to get a collection, may use that word of stations across the country that were outstanding. 

00:13:34 Speaker 1 

They were respected, that were accepted generally by the advertiser, by the agency. 

00:13:38 Speaker 2 

Yes, that’s right, Phil. 

00:13:39 Speaker 1 

Was that competitive to get those stations? 

00:13:41 Speaker 2 

Yes, very competitive. 

00:13:44 Speaker 2 

And the first objective on the part of a national sales representative host would be to acquire a station that was located in the highest ranking metropolitan marketing area, because that would dictate to a large degree the amount of dollars that would be allocated to that. 

00:14:04 Speaker 2 

And to have a television station in Vancouver or Toronto or Montreal meant surefire success in a in a relatively short period of time. 

00:14:16 Speaker 2 

But to work with stations in medium size or smaller, mark. 

00:14:21 Speaker 2 

New **** suggested that you were going to have distinct limitations on what you could realize in the way of sales as well as income for the national representative. 

00:14:32 Speaker 1 

But you did have some smaller markets too in your. 

00:14:35 Speaker 2 

Yes, we did, actually. 

00:14:37 Speaker 2 

Paul Molehill, when I stopped thinking about it today, was not blessed with a great deal of. 

00:14:45 Speaker 2 

Handsome franchises and one of the reasons why Paul did not have a number of big franchises at the outset was that Paul Mulvehill. 

00:14:56 Speaker 2 

Limited the old Paul Maldy Hill Ltd was owned initially 100% by Paul and there was no participation or involvement on the part of stations. 

00:15:08 Speaker 2 

Now, as you will recall, in the case of Hardy, you had, as I mentioned earlier, famous players and in the case of all Canada, there was a financial interrelationship with Selkirk and that had an awful lot to do with the kind of properties that could be acquired by those sales organizations. 

00:15:28 Speaker 2 

Maybe without getting ahead of myself, I think that I should point out that. 

00:15:33 Speaker 2 

It came to a point in Paul’s career and in the development of the company where it was necessary to. 

00:15:41 Speaker 2 

Frankly, look for. 

00:15:44 Speaker 2 

Some conglomerate, some major broadcasting company, to become involved with Paul Mulvehill and to ensure that we would have a viable future and the company that we eventually got involved with in 1973 was MacLean Hunter. 

00:16:01 Speaker 2 

Before that took place, I became a full partner with Paul Paul and I during the late 60s and early 70s, owned 1/2 of Paul Mulvahill Limited each, and it wasn’t until 1973 that we realized it was time had come. 

00:16:19 Speaker 2 

To get involved with a major property because. 

00:16:22 Speaker 2 

Unless we got involved with a station the size of, well, one of our clients today is CFCN TV in Calgary. 

00:16:30 Speaker 2 

We needed that in order to provide us with a fairly substantial revenue base. 

00:16:35 Speaker 1 

I wanted to ask you about the regional thing that let’s hypothetically say your call on an ad agency. 

00:16:40 Speaker 1 

Is it tougher to South East or West or was it in the beginning, was there any difference? 

00:16:46 Speaker 2 

Yes, I think that as we find today that Ontario and still Southern Ontario, there’s enormous amount of appeal when it comes to Southern Ontario because of its diversified nature economically and the fact that it’s such a heavy industrialized base and and the fact that it’s. 

00:17:06 Speaker 2 

Canada, so Southern Ontario, was always in demand, probably on in a ratio of two to one. 

00:17:13 Speaker 1 

Way back when too. 

00:17:14 Speaker 2 

I’m going right back to the 50s and 60s now. 

00:17:17 Speaker 2 

What I shouldn’t overlook, nor should any one of us, is that where we had a tremendous amount of activity out of our Toronto office for Southern Ontario when you got into Quebec, our Montreal office did extremely well in Quebec as well as the Maritimes. 

00:17:35 Speaker 2 

Back in those days, our Montreal office would produce 30% of our sales with our maritime stations and 70% of our sales would come out of Toronto. 

00:17:45 Speaker 2 

In all frankness today. 

00:17:47 Speaker 2 

Probably 10% of our sales for the maritime stations coming out Of Montreal. 

00:17:52 Speaker 2 

And 90% would come out of Toronto. 

00:17:55 Speaker 2 

There has been a change in philosophy as far as where the campaign is executed from. 

00:18:03 Speaker 2 

If it’s an English campaign for English markets and English stations, it’s generally executed out of Toronto as opposed to Montreal. 

00:18:14 Speaker 2 

And your major advertising agencies today will concentrate their efforts on Quebec from the aspect of their branch operation in Montreal. 

00:18:26 Speaker 2 

In having as I mentioned earlier, one television station out West. 

00:18:31 Speaker 2 

The station we had at that time was CFCN TV we also acquired in future years or pardon me, prior to getting CFCN TV stations in Prince George and Terrace Kitimat. 

00:18:46 Speaker 2 

Now those stations did an awful lot of business out of the Vancouver. 

00:18:49 Speaker 2 

So there’s that regional orientation. 

00:18:52 Speaker 2 

That you did find when it came to accounts, some national accounts where they wanted to have the business. 

00:19:02 Speaker 2 

Associated with a company that can give them more direct access to those markets. 

00:19:07 Speaker 1 

You’re calling on back in the days when you called on people. 

00:19:10 Speaker 1 

I suppose you still. 

00:19:10 Speaker 1 

Do some of. 

00:19:11 Speaker 1 

It before you became President, you call on a an agency and you’re selling him. 

00:19:16 Speaker 1 

Let’s say a station in Prince George. 

00:19:17 Speaker 1 

How much do you know about Prince George at that point, are you familiar with its beginnings, its history? 

00:19:22 Speaker 1 

It’s acceptance in the community. 

00:19:25 Speaker 2 

Yes, going back to the days that we used to have Prince George and Terrace Kitimat, actually, I think our knowledge of that individual marketplace from the point of view of what it looked like some of the. 

00:19:39 Speaker 2 

Unique characteristics of that given marketplace had to be. 

00:19:44 Speaker 2 

Had to be communicated. 

00:19:46 Speaker 2 

More often to the national advertiser, the advertising agency, because of the limited amount of research. 

00:19:52 Speaker 2 

There wasn’t the statistics. 

00:19:54 Speaker 2 

There wasn’t the information source that we have today today with computerization and with the sophistication that exists in processing Business Today. 

00:20:06 Speaker 2 

There really isn’t the time to sit down and and and get a true insight to the the local. 

00:20:13 Speaker 2 

Characteristic of that marketplace. 

00:20:14 Speaker 1 

I suppose there was times when you sold a station not on its rating numbers, but on its basic community popularity. 

00:20:22 Speaker 2 

Yes, yes, you’re right. 

00:20:24 Speaker 2 

Phil, you know, as a matter of fact, when you mentioned that fella, I can recall going back when I first joined Paul back in 1955. 

00:20:33 Speaker 2 

At that time in 1955, the only thing that you had in the way of research, you had two research organizations that were involved in measurement of reading on television audiences. 

00:20:45 Speaker 2 

In in radio. 

00:20:46 Speaker 2 

You had Elliott Haynes, which was a cool. 

00:20:49 Speaker 2 

The dental. 

00:20:51 Speaker 2 

Telephone type of. 

00:20:53 Speaker 1 

That’s what they were listening to when. 

00:20:55 Speaker 2 

They were telephones, right? 

00:20:56 Speaker 2 

And then the other company was BM or the Bureau of Broadcast Measurement. 

00:21:01 Speaker 2 

And at that time, the Bureau of Broadcast Measurement, if I’m not mistaken, only furnished a weekly circulation figure for that television. 

00:21:10 Speaker 2 

Station or that radio station. 

00:21:13 Speaker 2 

That was the initial step and I believe what followed was a weekly circulation report followed by daily circulation report. 

00:21:23 Speaker 2 

And then probably in the early 60s, we started to see. 

00:21:28 Speaker 2 

Quarter, hour and half hour audience figures, but for a long time there was a dependence, and relying solely on research, pardon me so solely on circulation. 

00:21:38 Speaker 1 


00:21:39 Speaker 1 

I was going to ask over the years television. 

00:21:42 Speaker 1 

Came in and. 

00:21:43 Speaker 1 

Radio, everybody thought was dead, but it wasn’t. 

00:21:45 Speaker 1 

They had the transistor and it came. 

00:21:47 Speaker 1 

Back to life. 

00:21:48 Speaker 1 

The industry’s been able to accommodate both radio and television from an advertising. 

00:21:52 Speaker 2 

Viewpoint, yes, yes, probably radio to a great extent is has topped out as a result of the love affair with television and we stop and consider the dollars that are being invested, invested in television today. 

00:22:07 Speaker 2 

And the dollars being invested in radio, there’s no question about it. 

00:22:10 Speaker 2 

That television is the most dynamic medium and the one that’s preferred most of all by the national advertiser. 

00:22:18 Speaker 2 

But radio has, I think, through the early part of the 80s gone through a very difficult transitional period and it’s it’s survived very well. 

00:22:29 Speaker 2 

And I think the reason why it’s survived is that the average the. 

00:22:32 Speaker 2 

Nation has had to become more resourceful in terms of its revenue sources. 

00:22:37 Speaker 2 

And we now see, for example, in markets like Toronto 17 and 18, radio stations in, Phil, you can remember the days when were you would buy two or three radio stations and that was adequate. 

00:22:50 Speaker 2 

You buy the station that you were associated with, the CHUM CFRB, CKY, and that generally gave you the kind of reach and the kind of. 

00:22:59 Speaker 2 

Frequency that you needed in this marketplace. 

00:23:02 Speaker 2 

Well, today it’s it’s so complex and so many stations are required by the national advertiser in order to do an effectual job. 

00:23:10 Speaker 2 

That an awful lot of stations that historically did very well nationally today may be just barely making it and they have found it necessary to find the development of. 

00:23:24 Speaker 2 

Retail business high priority if they wanted to survive. 

00:23:28 Speaker 1 

Radio salesman went from selling programs to selling spots to large. 

00:23:31 Speaker 2 

Yes, yes. 

00:23:32 Speaker 1 

Degree, didn’t they? 

00:23:34 Speaker 2 

As a matter of fact, even when I was coming in Phil back in the mid 50s, I recall the half hour shows that were syndicated half hour shows. 

00:23:45 Speaker 2 

And they were just being phased out in the mid 50s. 

00:23:48 Speaker 2 

And I think by the end of the 50s, it was pretty well a spot oriented business and very little. 

00:23:54 Speaker 2 

Well, I say spot. 

00:23:55 Speaker 2 

It wasn’t just solely spot. 

00:23:57 Speaker 2 

We had the five minute shows, the 10. 

00:23:59 Speaker 2 

Minute Show was on. 

00:24:01 Speaker 2 

And you will recall those days, those five and 10 minute vehicles were especially developed to capture the attention of the female, the female housewife. 

00:24:14 Speaker 2 

Shows that were sponsored by advertisers like Swift, Canadian and Canada Packers. 

00:24:20 Speaker 2 

As well as your major soap companies such as Lieber Brothers and Colgates, and Procter and. 

00:24:27 Speaker 2 

But by the time the mid 60s had arrived, I guess basically what we saw were the advertisers. 

00:24:34 Speaker 2 

Changing from the use of five and 10 minute vehicles to solely spots and the reason why that transition took place was that research started to indicate that you needed an awful lot of frequency in order to do a productive job in radio or television. 

00:24:54 Speaker 1 

Your uncle Volvo Holden was one that you wanted to emulate, at least at least you thought it was a good business to go into based upon his history. 

00:25:01 Speaker 1 

Yeah. Has it been that? 

00:25:03 Speaker 2 

Way for you? 

00:25:03 Speaker 2 

Yes, I I think that when I stop and reflect on the opportunity that was given to me by coming into this industry, I couldn’t possibly have duplicated. 

00:25:16 Speaker 2 

The satisfaction that I realized through being in broadcasting. 

00:25:21 Speaker 2 

Everyone is interested in doing well financially, but the stimulation in other areas. 

00:25:28 Speaker 2 

I don’t think anything could have equaled broadcasting. 

00:25:30 Speaker 2 

And additionally the people. 

00:25:33 Speaker 2 

People are just made this thing such a rewarding venture and I think they are. 

00:25:39 Speaker 2 

I think it’s made the difference for. 

00:25:41 Speaker 2 

Most of us. 

00:25:43 Speaker 2 

I think of a person like Ross Mccreath last week, Ross Mccreath there was a tribute to Ross. 

00:25:50 Speaker 2 

Tremendous turn out, and even though there are an awful lot of competitors there. 

00:25:56 Speaker 2 

Mainly people from the representative field. 

00:25:58 Speaker 2 

The fact the matter is that they all have a respect for one another, and I think most people have done very well in this. 

00:26:04 Speaker 2 

Industry. Thank you. Thank you. 

00:26:05 Speaker 1 

This has been an interview with non Bonnell, President of Paul Mulverhill Limited, conducted in Toronto in May 1988 by Phil Stone.